SJPOPO any luck wid the Nitrous info? [Archive]

jdgti

03-04-2001, 04:25 AM

From a previous sjpopo post:
Originally posted by sjpopo
If that's not enough to stop you, then a little cite probably won't be a big issue to you. If you have a NOS hookup in your car, even if you don't have a bottle, you can be cited and sent to the ref. If you have a bottle, it can be seized for evidence/safekeeping. I still have to see if there is a special cite for illegal transportation of a hazardous material.

So obviously they don't train you guys real well in how to spot "equipment violations" right?

So say I've got my car that I take to Sac, Sears, or any other legal strip and race it, and while on the track I use my nitrous...Now, when I'm on the street, I take my bottle out because I don't use it, but I leave everything else there? You're going to give me a ticket to go see the ref for something that has no impact on my vehicle on the street? Some wires and hoses, and a bracket for a bottle? What impact do these items have on the emissions of my vehicle?

Do you have any explanation for this situation?

Chris is right on the sticker issue as well, so there goes your cite for illegal transportation of a hazardous material.

And on the issue of seizing a bottle for evidence and safekeeping, do you have the proper hazardous materials stickers on your vehicles to be transporting a nitrous bottle around? Besides that, I'd sure like to know what exactly the bottle would be evidence of, or why it would need safekeeping if it was being transported in a vehicle where it was secured and the vehicle in question was displaying the proper hazardous material identification in sight? I think we need to go read 27903VC again.

27903VC
Subject to Section 114765 of the Health and Safety Code, any vehicle transporting any explosive, blasting agent, flammable liquid, flammable solid, oxidizing material, corrosive, compressed gas, poison, radioactive material, or other hazardous materials, of the type and in quantities that require the display of placards or markings on the vehicle exterior by the United States Department of Transportation regulations (49 C.F.R., Parts 172, 173, and 177), shall display the placards and markings in the manner and under conditions prescribed by those regulations of the United States Department of Transportation.
This section does not apply if the vehicles are transporting not more than 20 pounds of smokeless powder or not more than five pounds of black sporting powder or any combination thereof.

Though it does seem that in order to be in full cooperation with the labeling requirements laid out in DOT Transportation Regulation part 172.101, you would also need a yellow "oxidzer" sticker, like the one below. With this and the compressed gas "green" sticker, it is perfectly legal to transport nitrous oxide. It is actually more of a danger to be driving home with the propane tank for your barbecue in the back of your car.

http://63.141.231.97/cgi-bin/om_isapi.dll/172-426%20Oxidizer.gif.gif?infobase=netdot&object=172-426%20Oxidizer.gif&softpage=Document42

Oh...and while we're at it, here's another previous sjpopo post regarding the use of nitrous oxide:
Originally posted by sjpopo
Logically, it's a hazardous material that shouldn't be carried around in a car. The gas inside the NOS bottle is under high pressure and is extemely flammable. So, in a bad wreck, first your car becomes a bomb, then a fireball. So, if the high velocity metal from the exploding canister doesn't kill you, maybe you'll live to feel yourself burn to death.

I'd like to point you to the OSHA Occupational Safety and Health guidelines page for nitrous oxide http://www.osha-slc.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/nitrousoxide/recognition.html

Now, you might not want to read it all as it is rather lengthy, but the important matter would be here: Nitrous oxide is a non-flammable gas at room temperature.

Now, I'm sure some of the people here are also familiar with the not-so-bright fellow who blew up his nitrous bottle in his garage. If not, the web pages is at http://www.enhancedhealth.com/nitrousexpress.htm

There are several pictures there, I'm not going to bother posting them here since they are all pretty big. I'd like to ask though, where are the burn marks from when the car became a bomb, as you would have us believe Officer Hoyt?

I'm not trying to lessen the fact that NOS is a dangerous material, as the explosion of a canister can cause a lot of damage. However, it does not create a fireball, or burn you to death either. Know the facts first.

I'm not trying to play "rag on the cop" here or anything. I just don't like ignorance, in officers, racers, or others.

Here's one too: http://www.streetracing.org/article/nos.php

Sorry for the length, I just felt like covering a lot of information.

SgtGrant

03-04-2001, 02:36 PM

I would like to address just a couple of comments made by jdgti. I won't speak to the NOS issue since I don't know the first thing about it. Which brings up the issue of do we train officers to spot "equipment violations"? As we all know, with all of the codes out there, Vehicle, Penal, Municipal, Health & Safety, Business & Professions, Welfare and Institutions, etc., there are a bazillion codes available to enforce. Generally what happens is this; an officer decides to take enforcement actions in a few scenarios. One, is to witness something that the officer knows for a fact is a violation. These can be easy. Things like running a stop sign, stop light violations, etc. The officer makes a stop and even has the code number memorized if it's common. Other times an officer spots something that they believe to be a violation. Remember, for the officer to make a detention the officer must have reasonable suspicion, not probably cause, to make the stop. The criteria for reasonable suspicion is far less than probable cause, which is needed for an arrest. Many times an officer spots what they believe to be a criminal act, violation, call it what you will and determines to investigate further. Perfectly legal. There is case law to support that the officer doesn't have to have the code memorized and know for a certainty that the violation exists prior to the detention. The officer simply has to have a belief that the activity is suspicious, is related to crime, and the person is related to the activity.

However, the officer must believe, after their investigation, that the offense is valid and the person commited it prior to issuing a citation or making an arrest. This is probable cause. This is also why the courts have held that 20 minutes is a reasonable time for an officer to detain someone on a routine traffic stop barring any further developments. However, when the officer begins to find other potential violations, or evidence of other criminal activity, they are justified in taking whatever time is needed to further their investigation.

A second reason an officer looks to take enforcement action is based upon a complaint by a citizen, usually related to the officer by his/her supervisor. Officers are routinely directed to "problem areas" via the complaint process and told to address it. Street racing locations are typically targeted for this very reason. Some company, individual, property owner, etc. complains and the officers are told to take action, personal opinions aside. If something newsworthy takes place at the site, much more the pressure. I can assure you that not every officer who recieves an assignment to address a complaint about street racing is just dying to get out there and take action. But, the officer may take the time to become more familiar, perhaps even become an expert, in the area of that enforcement that normally they wouldn't pay that much attention to. Others may choose to do what is needed to appease the complaint, and no more. Various areas of the city and different shifts demand varying levels of expertise.

As for transporting seized items in a patrol car, there is statute and case law that exempts officers from possessing items of evidentiary value from prosecution. It is illegal to have cocaine in your car or pocket too but officers can seize it and transport it without prosecution. In the case of hazardous materials, as in with a dope lab let's say, the officer can call the FD hazmat unit if they so desire and have them take care of it. Myself, if I have any doubts at all as to the safety of seizing an item and transporting it, I call someone who knows more than I on the subject.

Lastly, officers aren't infallible. Neither are D.A's, private attorneys, judges, the court system, etc. Even the best experts sometimes disagree on the very subjects they profess to be the "all beings" on. That is part of the reason we have the court system that we have. It is a chance to have prosecution reviewed and scrutinized as to whether it was proper. Our court system isn't perfect but, having lived in another country, I would suggest to everyone that the alternatives are far less pleasant.

SgtGrant

03-04-2001, 02:37 PM

Let me also comment that the information I post is related to California, and generally not to other states.

sjpopo

03-04-2001, 04:26 PM

jdgti,

Like I said, I'll be sure to post when I've reviewed the law. However, if I catch someone racing or driving recklessly in San Jose and you have a Nitrous bottle in your car - hooked up or not - I will take it for safekeeping and I'm sure a judge would approve. That's not based on my specific knowledge of the law (yet) but on common sense. If you are racing or driving recklessly, then you shouldn't have a hazardous material in your car.

I am curious about something and I'll check with the CHP: If you carry hazmat in your car on a regular basis (e.g. NOS), I wonder if that obligates you to a special class of license, special training or if I can then cite for hazardous/dangerous/reckless transportation of a hazmat. We'll see.

Jdgti, you lit a fire under my feet about this. Thanks for the inspiration. Anybody with NOS in their car can thank you if they get reamed for having NOS in their car in the future in San Jose.

Drive safe,

Ofc. Hoyt
SJPD

jdgti

03-04-2001, 11:40 PM

I'm glad you're at least willing to educate yourself on the topic, though I have to ask one other thing. You said if you caught someone racing or driving recklessly and found a n2o setup in their car, you would take the bottle for safekeeping. Well, what if you just decide to pull someone over because you see them in a "known racing area" and their exhaust is loud, and then you find nitrous? No moving violation was committed, it was just a stop and harrass situation for 27151. I would say there's a 99% chance you would still confiscate the bottle from them, though I don't think a judge would agree with you in the end. It's one thing to just be rude about it and take the bottle, but when you have to back that up against an informed person in court, it becomes a little more difficult than you first thought.

I also like how you didn't address the errors in your previous statements, but as long as you're going to look into it, then you're going to learn all the things you were wrong about anyways.

No need to check with CHP on the special license class issue, I can clarify that one as well. With a Class C Commercial license, you may drive any class c vehicle carrying hazardous materials which require placards.

I'd much rather you cite someone for the right vc than just be rude and act ignorant about the subject, I've got no problem there. If someone is breaking the law, give them a ticket.

I'm still learning on this topic as well, but since I work for a company that transports hazardous materials all across the country every single day, any information I need is available to me. I'll go back and forth on this with you as long as you want to, I'm sure I'd learn a thing or two as well.

I honestly don't mean to come off as a dick, I just have a hard time writing responses to south bay officers without getting riled up. After spending time racing in other areas and being treated much different by the local law enforcement, I don't have a lot of respect for the way you guys handle your situation. I know it's tough with the large number of cars you have to deal with, but that doesn't justify giving out bogus tickets either.

Let's look at it this way, say you cite me for 27151. I have to either pay $77 to the courts and ignore it, pay up to $60 by the time I'm done for a state ref smog to clear it, or take half a day off work at least to drive to SJ and contest it, which costs even more than the first two choices. You've effectively screwed me either way I go, and of course, your simple answer "Don't go to the races". But if the state ref signs it off, or I win it in court because I have all the proper paperwork, then you obviously wrote me a B.S. ticket, right?

Since I have no need to go to San Jose, you won't be seeing me anyways. I've got tickets out there before, and taken care of them...I just don't agree with the way you guys operate. At least where I'm at now I only have to worry about getting a ticket if I'm caught racing or am guilty of some other moving violation, I don't have to worry just because I saw a cop that I might get my hood popped and get a fistfull of bogus cites.

As far as anyone with NOS being able to thank me if they get reamed in the future, that's all you man. If you ream someone, I didn't twist your arm to do it. Besides that, I'm sure I wouldn't be wrong if I said you would have reamed them before anways, without having a "fire lit under your ass".

At least when you ream them now, you'll know the law exactly, cite them properly, and not simply berate them about their car turning into a fireball.

If that's the case, I feel better knowing you've educated yourself. Everyone says you're here to educate the racers...well officer, just remember it's a two way street and you can learn from a racer as well.

BTW, thanks for taking the time to respond before, I wasn't sure what kind of reply I would find from that.

SgtGrant

03-06-2001, 06:22 AM

jdgti, I don't have any problem with you taking an officer to task on their expertise. In fact, it's good to have a degree of scrutiny on what we do so that we maintain our education, remain professional and enforce the various codes properly. However, you made several statements that are rather telling:

"Well, what if you just decide to pull someone over because you see them in a "known racing area" and their exhaust is loud, and then you find nitrous? No moving violation was committed, it was just a stop and harrass situation for 27151". If their exhaust is too loud, that is a certainly reasonable suspicion for a detention and more likely a citable violation. As I explained in my previous post, if the stop is legal, and further information develops that other violations exist, then the officer is well justified in pursuing a more detailed investigation. If you choose to place yourself in an area that is going to be under the microscope, that is your decision.

"After spending time racing in other areas and being treated much different by the local law enforcement" and "At least where I'm at now I only have to worry about getting a ticket if I'm caught racing or am guilty of some other moving violation" By your own admission, you break the law. Street racing isn't legal. Period. You play, you pay. It's that simple. If an officer is discourteous during a contact, that is one thing. For people to snivel and pout about officers taking enforcement action when they are clearly doing something illegal, then I have no sympathy. I have much more respect for those that are mature enough to accept the fact that when they get caught, it's nobody elses fault but their own. If you street race, you take the chance of getting all the service that the State of California and the City of San Jose can provide you around here. Many street races result in nothing more than bragging rights about who is faster. But, there are more than enough that have ended up with far uglier results. So, public pressure will continue to shape our policies on enforcement. After all, the taxpayers have a say in where their money is spent. That's life here in the big city.

jdgti

03-06-2001, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by SgtGrant
"After spending time racing in other areas and being treated much different by the local law enforcement" and "At least where I'm at now I only have to worry about getting a ticket if I'm caught racing or am guilty of some other moving violation" By your own admission, you break the law. Street racing isn't legal. Period. You play, you pay. It's that simple

Isn't that what I was saying? Now I only worry about getting a ticket when I'm breaking the law, by doing something like racing, versus beingin San Jose and having to worry about getting a ticket just because I drove by a cop and he feels my exhaust is too loud. I don't think you were catching the point there. I'm well aware racing is illegal, and that's why I try to be as cautious as I can while racing and I haven't got in trouble for it yet. Some would say you're not a real racer if you don't have the tickets to back it up, I say if you get tickets for racing, you weren't paying enough attention anyways. I'm sure it will happen to me eventually too, if you break the law enough times you're bound to get caught. But you won't see me sitting here complaining about it. Sure, it might suck...I'll sit at home and complain about it, but I'm certainly not going to blame it on the officer.

Originally posted by SgtGrant
For people to snivel and pout about officers taking enforcement action when they are clearly doing something illegal, then I have no sympathy. I have much more respect for those that are mature enough to accept the fact that when they get caught, it's nobody elses fault but their own.

I certainly wasn't sniveling about not being able to accept a ticket for doing something illegal. The specific situation I was refering to actually was being pulled over while traveling southbound on Junction by two officers that were parked at the end of Brennan. I was the only vehicle in the area at the time, and was told I was stopped because I had been spotted earlier on Qume by one of the officers. I was actually on Qume earlier, driving through, and again was the only vehicle in the area. So these two officers tell me unless I drive a gas tanker or I'm a CHP officer, I have no business travelling down Junction at 2:00 am. Then when I attempted to produce my paperwork for my exhaust, the officer told me he didn't want to see if and not to start arguing with him. So I took my ticket and left.

Now that you know the specifics of the situation, you can see how that was somewhat frustrating. Of course I can drive down the road at 2:00 am, there's no law against that. So I wasn't "clearly doing something illegal"...at least not that I can figure. I'm sure you guys get annoyed pulling over people all night, but some of the comments and remarks many of the officers make, just because they're cops and they can get away with it, are uncalled for. Sure, it's petty, but it doesn't help the situation any either, and certainly doesn't do anything for your relationship with the racers.

And just to clarify, my car was not lowered, stickered, had no chrome exhaust, it looked like a stock car, with the stock hidden turndown exhaust tip, and a borla muffler. So I don't feel like I was "singled out" because I had an obviously modified car or anything either. I won't sit here and go down that road, I'll leave that one for the neon civics to bitch about. If you don't want to get hassled, don't stand out, works for me 99% of the time at least.

John

03-06-2001, 04:52 PM

i was informed by a police officer that it is a hazardous materials violation to transport NOS in yur car

98 Cavy

03-06-2001, 09:37 PM

if you get pulled over for a dumb ticket for something you
didn't do use this:

"I'm a litigations attorney, your a city cop, you think you
know the law better than me give it your best shot"

if they still give you a dumb ticket take em to court and
embarrass them in front of a judge. Nothing feels better
than seeing a judge scold a cop in a full courtroom followed
by a stern "all charges dismissed". My brother's judge
called the cop ignorant and said she'd better clean up her
act.

IMO cops should remember how it felt to get tickets back
before they were cops and what it was like being harrassed.
Having a bad attitude when giving a ticket just makes people
hate cops in general. If a cop acts like a bad ass throw
it right back at em, they're people just like anyone else.
The law doesn't say they can insult you or harrass you.
But don't be an asshole to the cop when you get pulled over
either, take your punishment like a man. just my .02

-98 cavy's bro

[Edited by 98 Cavy on 03-06-2001 at 09:44 PM]

03-07-2001, 01:59 AM

just some props to the officers coming on this board and taking the time to give us some advice. thanks.
remember we are people too. just like you. thanks for the help and please take it easy on us... we got families too, just addicted to having fun (racing).. it's not a drug but it gives us that boost in our life that we need to keep us hangin' in there.
me, myself, i don't even have parents. I was raised by foster families and in the childrens shelter. my family is out there in the street races on a weekend and my closest member is the car i drive in which i invest all my checks (after i pay my college fees),shit... i am surprised i even made it to college after all i been through, let alone uc berkeley.
peace to all. i know i ain't the only one with a hard life growing up.

SgtGrant

03-07-2001, 06:01 AM

For jdgti,

I guess it depends on your perspective. Let me summarize what you posted regarding being pulled over on Qume from a cops viewpoint. If I were a betting man I'd say the situation was this: The area is known for racing. You were out looking for a race, to watch a race, to hang out with racers, to check out other street racers, etc. The cops have been told to address complaints of racing in the area. The cops see you in the area twice and decide to take a look at you to see if you are part of the problem. They hear your exhaust and determine to pull you over to further investigate their "reasonable suspicion" that you may have illegal exhaust. After doing so, they determine to cite you for illegal exhaust. You disagree that it's illegal, they think that they have a valid violation. They really don't want to hear you argue your case on the side of the road. Everyone wants to try their case on the spot and it isn't the proper forum. They issue the cite, which is probably what their Sgt. has told them to do and send you on your way. They tell you that you really don't have any business in the area at 2:00 am and truth be told, other than looking for a race, you probably don't. The officer wasn't ordering you out of the area, they can't legally do that. But, they were expressing the opinion, and probably an accurate one, that your business in the area at 2:00 am wasn't legit, i.e. looking for a race. Also, keep in mind that at 2:00 am, the bars have just closed. It's deuce time for most cops then. Seeing someone driving around in the same area is going to raise suspicions that the person is lost, or perhaps disoriented because of alcohol. Any legal excuse to pull over and arrest a drunk driver should be commended. DUI's have killed more folks than a million street racers.

So, again, what you perceive as harassment, is viewed as a "zero tolerance policy" on the part of the agency that stops you in the San Jose area. Why? Because people drive around industrial parks at 2:00 am and look for races, find them, and generate complaints or worse. The officers, who in all honesty would probably rather be doing just about anything but sitting in an industrial area waiting for you, are just trying to address a concern, or in other words, doing what they are told and paid to do. I don't think you are sniveling that much, but I do see you comparing San Jose area agencies with others and claiming that we harass, as opposed to tolerate street racers. You would be right that it isn't tolerated around here, but if you want harassment, you need to look elsewhere for real harassment. Someone else posted that officers are human too. That is absolutely correct and as such, we are entitled to our opinions. As long as the officer remains professional, they can voice their opinions to you if they want.

As for 98 cavy's comment regarding court, once again, if you feel you can beat a ticket, have at it. On the streets, I can assure you that nothing will generate a ticket quicker than being a smart alec to the cop who is standing there deciding whether or not to cite and if so, how many violations to list. Telling a cop that you are an attorney pretty much guarantees full service. Why not throw in the comment "Hey, shouldn't you be over at the donut shop stuffing your face" while you are at it. In over 15 years that I have been a cop I have never seen a judge chastise an officer in court. Oh, I have heard the stories over and over again from people who claim to have seen it. I think it's mostly wishful thinking. That doesn't mean that cops don't lose in court however. But, we don't go home and cry ourselves to sleep. If we make a mistake, we try and educate ourselves and not make it again.

RS/377

03-07-2001, 06:51 AM

Actually, dp, I say hold off on the props for a minute. This began as a simple discussion about nitrous transport. With the length and research that JDGTI did, I would have to say that the police could at least step up to the plate and throw some codes our way to look at.

I'm not saying JDGTI is right, however, I know SJPOPO needs to actualy look at what nitrous is and does. Ibelieve if this lit a fire under his feet, he needs to educate himself before he gets all over other people. This garbage about not having to know the codes is telling me that these guys know they don't know whats actualy going on. Thats alright though, we are human, we make mistakes and learn.

I believe that we have strayed too far from the real matter at hand and have gotten into the old "probale cause" arguement, which I remember from CJ class is "any god cop can find a reason to pull you over"

So lets change the scenario, and I will make it a little easier to isolate the issue: Say I was driving down the road in my metro. I am pulled over for say a broken tail light, the officer notices I am transporting NOS, can he seize it? Along those lines, though, can he seize a propane tank since it is a moe hazardous material?

And do not change the subject to my driving, I have a clean record because I drive like a grandma. Do not tailgate, no sudden lane changes, nothing. Its sucks when you have a metro and your scared of all the SUV's

John

03-07-2001, 08:47 AM

you all need to get along... cops are cool people if u are cool to them ... (exception of downtown cops)
if yur racing take yut ticket... why u have to argue and get more tickets is on yu .. ive gotten out of a ton of tickets by showing the poilice officer respect when he pulls me over... all of u that are smartasses to the police can keep getting your tickets....

thats my 2 cents

JAY

RS/377

03-07-2001, 11:08 AM

I give cops 100% respect when pulled over. I just want some straight answers with VC numbers in them proving there point. It would be like you and I arguing about who has the fatter mamma, we can talk all we want, but you need proof. I'm just asking for the cops to put up some proof before we go giving any "props" out. Really, I give props to my lawyer that at least doesn't try to change the subject.

tom3

03-13-2001, 04:32 AM

Originally posted by SgtGrant
In over 15 years that I have been a cop I have never seen a judge chastise an officer in court. Oh, I have heard the stories over and over again from people who claim to have seen it. I think it's mostly wishful thinking. That doesn't mean that cops don't lose in court however. But, we don't go home and cry ourselves to sleep. If we make a mistake, we try and educate ourselves and not make it again.

I actually had a judge get mad at the prosecution attorney and I had a hard time trying not to have a big grin on my face. She actually made the mistake lots of people do: try something and when it fails switch to something unrelated hoping better luck.
In my case, they raised a few questions in court, so I said I would need a second court date to bring some more evidence and she opposed it claiming that I didn't bring up a reasonable doubt while, I believe, I did and in the end the judge told her that going her ways would be the mockery of the justice system, etc. it was so funny to see the judge doing her a lecture about how her requests weren't reasonable. I really enjoyed it, but in all honesty she was really lame and deserved it.
it was a photo radar ticket and we had an argument about my tail lights (they're both brake light and signals) : on the picture it shows my left brake light on, not the right and I said I was turning left, so first she claimed that it was my brake light and not my signals, and declined my invitation to go check the car on the parking lot :) and then she claimed that maybe I was braking and my right bulb was broken, just stuff like that. It was odd because we really started to have a dispute about her arguments and I remember saying something like 'and I waited x monthes for a court date to hear that' and at first it really surprised me to see the judge tolerate that and in the end side with me; That was the only time it happened like that though (she was a prosecutor for the crown, in Canada)

Dan

03-14-2001, 03:48 PM

My car carriers a flammable li1uid in it.

It is 92 Octane fuel.

I better get a placard.

Silly shit.........

RS/377

03-14-2001, 04:25 PM

Hey, Dan- you had better keep the valve closed on the fuel tank if you want to be leagal!

You know what the funny thing is, they will tell you a fuel cell is illegal too. Maybe it is, but last time I checked my stock fuel tank didn't have a rubber bladder in it to keep the fuel in in case of a crash.

So is anyone going to post a VC number for the NOS question?

jdgti

03-14-2001, 06:39 PM

If it takes this long to come up with a VC that has anything to do with nitrous being illegal, what VC would an officer cite you for if he pulled you over?

To my knowledge you can't get a ticket without a code on it showing what law you are breaking. So if I were to get stopped tomorrow in SJ with a bottle, I wonder what my cite would say.

You know the average cop isn't gonna know what to write it up for if the officers assigned to the illegal racing detail don't have a VC off the top of their head. I'd imagine since nitrous is a common (maybe not so much in this area) cheap power adder used by streetracers, this has to be discussed during rollcall and what not.

Solo

03-14-2001, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by jdgti
If it takes this long to come up with a VC that has anything to do with nitrous being illegal, what VC would an officer cite you for if he pulled you over?

To my knowledge you can't get a ticket without a code on it showing what law you are breaking. So if I were to get stopped tomorrow in SJ with a bottle, I wonder what my cite would say.

You know the average cop isn't gonna know what to write it up for if the officers assigned to the illegal racing detail don't have a VC off the top of their head. I'd imagine since nitrous is a common (maybe not so much in this area) cheap power adder used by streetracers, this has to be discussed during rollcall and what not.

I hate how when they don't know what to cite you for pick
something that's close or somewhat related or it falls
under some general law that applies to everything.

ex: getting a ticket for a window sticker or as cops like
to say "obstruction of view" even though the law was not
set in affect for the purpose of preventing people from
putting stickers in their windows.

Or pulling you over for "appeared to be swerving in lanes"
at night and said they were doing a routine stop for
possible DUI or something when you know you weren't swerving
in lanes for one, you damn sure ain't drinkin, and then they
see your car's modified and say what cha got here?

This type of stuff is borderline harrasment IMO.

Just my humble .02

SgtGrant

03-15-2001, 06:10 AM

Solo,
Using your logic I can see another problem with this. I spot a guy who has his bumper barely hanging on with duct tape and bailing wire doing 65 mph on the freeway. Off the top of my head, I'm not exactly sure what the vehicle code violation is. However, I do recognize that this bumper, which is swaying and appears in imminent danger of flying off, could seriously cause a problem for other cars also following at 65 mph. In fact, if the car following was say, lowered, with an air dam, it could really reek havoc. Especially if that car is nice and low. That bumper might end up in the windshield. But, not knowing the exact violation, perhaps I should just ignore it. Or, I see some guy, who by all appearances looks like a gang banger, holding your Grandmas arm and escorting her into an alley as I drive by. I'm not positive that a crime is occuring. I don't know for a fact that a robbery, or a rape is about to take place. I couldn't even hazard a guess as to the exact section of each Penal Code statute that might be transpiring. So, I should turn a blind eye to this potential crime and drive on?

As I explained in another post, officers use reasonable suspicion in order to perform a legal stop. Then, after an investigation, they issue a cite for what they believe to be the proper violation. If you drive a car that has the sound or appearance of one that is in violation, and you hang in areas known for violations to occur, it's simply an odds game that you will be serviced.

jdgti

03-15-2001, 11:34 AM

Care to answer my question as well? I don't see a problem with pulling someone over for their bumper hanging off, because you know there's a VC for it, and if you don't know it right then and there, you'll look it up, or ask another officer over the radio or something else after the stop.

What I was asking above was different. If you stop me, say for exhaust or whatever (doesn't matter), and then you find out I have a nitrous setup, what are you going to cite me for? All I want to know is what VC you would put on the citation before you let me go.

And if the bottle isn't hooked up, it's not an emissions violation, so you can't use that one either.

I'm guessing what it would come down to is you letting me leave with my bottle and no citation, right? It certainly doesn't seem that anyone has been very clear on what VC to use, between yourself and Hoyt I haven't heard one yet.

How can you tell me it's illegal if there's not a law against it for me to look up?

Solo

03-15-2001, 01:48 PM

I see your point but who decides what reasonable suspision
is? the cop does and when he uses it like I said before to
pull someone over for whatever reason *cough* racial
profiling *cough* or what ever else I'm not saying all cops
do it. All I'm saying is cops often bend the law and I
have been harassed by police my self on several occasions
so the reality is that cops DO harrass, racial profiling
does exist, and cops use the law to their advantage. Thats
just my personal opinion and my first example is still a
very different situation than your examples.

RS/377

03-15-2001, 03:24 PM

Could we please keep this on subject- everyone has had good and bad run ins with the police. The locals here let a friend and I go like eight years ago with just dumping out the two cases of beer we had, even though they found a empty pistol in the truck( it was funny they called dispatch and said "its just two rednecks drinking beer in the back of their pick up"), but then the same police would not come arrest the parolee above my house who was violating his parole by being there and stole my bicycle.
Please lets keep this away from the classic "I got pulled over because I'm young and my skin is blue"

So now the question is- what vehicle code will I see written on my ticket when you guys pull me over and I have NOS?

sjpopo

03-16-2001, 08:28 AM

You know you're a redneck if you have a parolee living on your roof.

Sorry, back to the point. I had some free time in court, so I pulled out a fresh copy of the new CVC. The only info I could find on N2O was in Sections 32000-34500. It deals with the transportation of hazardous materials. However, it discusses only the transportation of those materials by commercial trucks.

What this means is that I'm going to have to call the fire dept and CHP for advice. So, hang on tight, it'll be a while until I get a chance to do that.

Drive safe,

Ofc. Hoyt
SJPD

jdgti

03-16-2001, 01:09 PM

Wow...thanks for actually bringing what you had to the table. So would I be wrong in saying that if I was pulled over with a nitrous bottle in my passenger seat at the runs tonight, there's not a valid VC to cite me for?

Granted, I'm not bored enough to test out this theory, but it sure would seem like we're only down to smog violations for nitrous systems again. Which means if you have a domestic V8, you can buy the NOS kits with CARB EO #'s, keep your paperwork, and get off scott free. At least until there's any info to say otherwise, this seems to be the case.

sjpopo

03-16-2001, 04:22 PM

No, other officers may have more information than me on the topic. In addition, there is still the catch all sections like 240002 CVC.

You're safer without the NOS.

Drive safe,

Ofc. Hoyt
SJPD

RS/377

03-16-2001, 05:19 PM

Here is the catch all code:
24002. (a) It is unlawful to operate any vehicle or combination of
vehicles which is in an unsafe condition, or which is not safely
loaded, and which presents an immediate safety hazard.
(b) It is unlawful to operate any vehicle or combination of
vehicles which is not equipped as provided in this code.

My NOS bottle has a DOT number on it, so I must assume that it is actually approved. NOS is too big of a company to pull of false advertising like that. you guys would bust them in a minute. Plus several of there kits have been tested by CARB for 50 state approval.

So it seems that this code would not be the "catch all" that you think it is.

By the way, I agree, the car is safer without it. I'm not saying its unsafe with it though. A car is safer without any gas too
Please respond with your ideas

[Edited by RS/377 on 03-16-2001 at 05:24 PM]

SgtGrant

03-17-2001, 03:44 PM

I'll let Officer Hoyt deal with the nitrous issue since he is dealing with it on the streets. However, I would like to clarify the racial profiling issue. Folks need to understand what racial profiling is. There is the assumption by many that if an officer pulls over a car, and the person is another race, then racial profiling may have occured. Not the case. Racial profiling is exactly this; pulling over a car based not upon reasonable suspicion of a violation, but upon a profile that the driver fits. For example, back east where this controversy really blew up, they were making car stops on the highway simply based upon the appearance of the driver and car. In other words, "we know what a dope dealer looks like and what they drive and that is good enough". No cracked winshield, loud muffler, speeding, obstructed view, illegal parts, etc. Just based upon their fitting a "profile".

I can assure you that the San Jose Police Department, and most California law enforcement agencies, do not, and will not make a car stop simply on the "profile" of the driver or car. If there is an on view violation, no matter what the driver looks like, and the officer makes a stop for it, that isn't racial profiling. Now, having said that, do officers know where the dope dealing takes place? Do they know where street racers hang out? Do they know where the DUI's roll out of at 2:00 am? Absolutely. And, rest assured, we do try and target specific types of crime when we can. Does this mean we will make a car stop without a legal reason to do so? Absolutely not. But, it is simply good police work to use the vehicle code as a reason to investigate further any violations that may exist, no matter what they are.

If the deputies had been a little more snoopy with Richard Alan Davis when he was illegally parked on the side of the road, there might have been a different outcome with the little girl who ended up dead. A good cop uses all of the laws to address a problem when that problem has been pointed out to them.

RS/377

03-26-2001, 05:42 PM

Just wanted to bump this one up if anyone has any new info to share tha twould be great. I heard the mercury did an article on NOS does any one know how long ago this was?

sjpopo

03-29-2001, 01:40 PM

Haven't forgotten about this issue, just have been really busy. I haven't been getting the return calls I expected, either. I'll fill you all in ASAP.

Drive safe,

Ofc. Hoyt
SJPD

RS/377

04-03-2001, 02:51 PM

Well in my travels I headed to my local CHP office to clear up this nitrous issue.

I was directed to a officer (I can't remember his exact position) who said that a ten pound bottle would not require placarding or a license. He then gave me the phone number of the Gilroy Inspection Station. CHP walking around doing their normal business and no one bated an eye at a kid asking about nitrous. That seemed kind of weird, because how adamant you seem to be in the fact that is illegal and that the police could seize it.

I went home and called the station. I immediatley was put thrugh to a very helpfull lady that explained to me that there was a certain amount under title 13 in the federal motor carrier that could be carried for personal use.

I tried to get the laws off the internet, but the motor carrier site is very difficult to navigate. So today I drove to gilroy today and had them find the section and explain it to me.

I was immediatley helped by two very polite ladies, one of which was an officer- and I would believe that hte other was an inspector of sorts, but I am not sure. They copied a page out of Barclays Code of Reulations- Title 13 section 1160.1. This is going to suck because I have to type the whole thing- can't figure out how to put it on the web

1160.1(g)- shipping paper inexceptions which reads Section 1161, pertaining to shiping papers shall not apply to a private carrier transporting any of the following:

(1)Not more than 227 kilograms (500 pounds) aggregate gross weight of hazardous materials other than:
(A)Any material listed in CFR 172.504, Table 1, or
(B)Any material for which an infectious substance, keep away from food, organic peroxide, spontaniously combustable, poison or radioactive label is required for or,
(C)Any materials that require a Uniform Hazardous Waste Manifest pursuant to section 25160 of the Health and Safety Code.
(2)- this one deals with anhydrous amonia, I would prefer not to type it al he way out
(3){Here is the important one} Not more than 1 cylinder each of argon, oxygen, carbon dioxide, accetylene, helium, or nitrogen if the gross weight is less than 454kg (1001lbs.), provide containers and labeling comply with sectins 1161.2 and 1163 of this article.

And again in this ofice there were several CHP officers who were miling about who did not even bat an eye that these people were teling me that nitrous was legal. In fact the officer that helped me was very polite, but it seemed like I was wasting her time a little bit wanting the exact code. Guess she has neve been a young guy driving an import sports car before.

I would like to point out that I called the CHP, and was very up front with the fact that I was putting this on a hot rod. I was immediatley helped and took up a good half hour of this ladies time, when she didn't have the answer she put me on hold and called another station, taking his time up. It seems that in the afternoons she, and the other person in the office are basically bored.

When I went in person, two people helped me and got me out of there in a very quick and efficent manner.

In case you are wondering the UN number for NOS is UN3156- it is classified as a compressed gas. The DOT approval number is DOT 3AL1800 manufactured by Luxfer manufacturing ( http://www.luxfer.com/group/companies/luxfergas/ ), which is a global company.

As far as I am concerned, I'm done. I now have no fear about hooing up my nitrous system that I will be using at the track.

AJSRX7

04-03-2001, 10:09 PM

i would call that an end!

sjpopo

04-07-2001, 11:56 AM

Thanks for the info. You did a heck of a lot of hard work for that. I appreciate the knowledge that it's cool by law to carry the stuff. The use of it is still a question. I'm awaiting a call back, through a fellow officer, to the CARB people who will let me know what their persective is on the issue.

Regardless of whether or not it's illegal, if you're driving recklessly with a hazardous compressed gas in your car - and I catch you doing it - I'm legally justified in taking the canister for your safety and for the safety of the other drivers on the road.

Drive safe,

Ofc. Hoyt
SJPD

RS/377

04-07-2001, 12:14 PM

Under what vehicle code would that be?

Just wondering, need a new subject to look up. I'm not worried about it, my grandmother drives crazier than I do.

Really, I've pretty much given up on the idea of driving my car around the Central Coast/ Bay Area- for racing or other wise. I assume Hoyt that you are the most enlightened officer that patrols these types of things and even you by your own admission are willing to bust people for things you aren't informed about. The fact that your peers know even less worries me.

Thats cool though, about the time its on the road again, it will be far far away from this area.

sjpopo

04-27-2001, 07:49 AM

Another officer who is ten times more proficient in racing issues than I am contacted an official at the California Air Resources Board (CARB) who told him the following:

CARB issues E.O. numbers for NOS systems for some models of cars. According to the list, CARB does not authorize NOS systems for any import cars. If you plan on putting NOS on a domestic car, check with CARB for legality. NOS on any import car is illegal.

For those of you who don't know, CARB tests and authorizes certain parts for California cars. They focus on those parts that contribute to the production of smog-producing emissions. This includes intakes, headers, exhaust systems and NOS.

I still have a call into SJ Fire Dept HAZMAT people to find out what the deal is regarding the fire code and NOS.

Now, if you are driving a domestic car with NOS that is legally installed, the NOS can still be confiscated if you are driving recklessly. That's up to the officer's discretion. However, keep in mind, if you are arrested or cited for driving recklessly or for racing, your whole car can be towed and impounded. If you're caught racing, your car can be impounded for a month.

Drive safe,

Ofc. Hoyt

Matt

04-27-2001, 02:09 PM

hmmm....interesting.

dubster99

05-08-2001, 09:09 PM

If you don't have the bottle in the car, are you still breaking the law?? there is no nitrous in the system of the car anywhere, therefore no hazardous material. you arent running it, so there is no emissions change. any reply is appreciated.

RS/377

05-08-2001, 10:27 PM

Unfortantley, our government is so ass backwards a empty hose changes the emisions according to them. So yeah it is a smog violation

You are not doing anyting wrong by having the bottle, while it is a hazardous material, it is within the allowable amount to carry as long as it is secured

dubster99

05-08-2001, 10:45 PM

Is there anything in this country that isnt ass backwards....im beginning to think no. that is absofregginlutely ridiculous. a hose that has nothing in it adding nothing to the car effects emissions. the bottle is out of the car here!! i hate the government. REIGN ANARCHY!! jk

Flux

05-09-2001, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by sjpopo
Thanks for the info. You did a heck of a lot of hard work for that. I appreciate the knowledge that it's cool by law to carry the stuff. The use of it is still a question. I'm awaiting a call back, through a fellow officer, to the CARB people who will let me know what their persective is on the issue.

Regardless of whether or not it's illegal, if you're driving recklessly with a hazardous compressed gas in your car - and I catch you doing it - I'm legally justified in taking the canister for your safety and for the safety of the other drivers on the road.

Drive safe,

Ofc. Hoyt
SJPD

hahaha. Basically what he is saying, "You wasted your time driving all around town. Next time i see you on the road with nos i will fuck you over!! And ill make up some bs cvc violation just to cover my ass.."

RS/377

05-10-2001, 05:45 PM

Well that is , hopefully, why we have seperaton of the courts and the police. He cites who he has to, and the rest is between the courts, my lawyers, and the cities lawyers.

Funny thing though- it seems to me that the only peolple that give a rats ass are the undereducated Bay Area police. Everyone else acted like it was no big deal. "Nitrous, why do you need such specific info? Its legal to have."

RS/377

08-01-2001, 08:11 PM

So I guess I have to ask, hoyt, have you come up with any new info?

SpeedRacer

08-02-2001, 02:32 PM

From what i know of the subject, there isn't any carb nos kits for imports because it violates smog reg. But how does just having the bottle and the lines in the car have to do with smog? I believe when using NOS thats when you violate smog reg. But anyhow from what a local chp told me it is alright to carry nos in you car as long as you have the Green diamond lable showing that you are carring Nos or Haz. matrials. From what he was also telling me that you can have the bottle in the car as long as the line is not connected to the bottle.
You don't need a special licencen to transport Nos. This is all i know about the subject. So if any officers can shine somemore light on the subject and all the cvc codes please do so.

RS/377

08-02-2001, 04:51 PM

You know , if you read the whole thread, I spelled out the exact code that says its legal, and the were it also says it is excempt from the green diamonds.

The deal with it being smog legal is this, if the company does not pay the application and testing fees, then you don't get a CARB number. The Carb numbers are very model specific, therefore, for imports, it is hard to pin point what market you want to certify

There are late model domestics, like the 5.0 mustang, that have carb numbers. This is because NOS knew that there was going to be a big enough market for a legal kit to justify the time in testing and certification.

The bottom line id there are no smog legal import kits for money reasons.

RS/377

08-02-2001, 04:56 PM

The reason that this is so hard of a topic is that nothing in the CVC says anything about nitrous oxide. it goes back to the Federal Motor Carrier, aa set of Federal regulations.

Read the whole thread and you may learn something

PiNoyRcr127

08-03-2001, 03:27 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RS/377
[B]Unfortantley, our government is so ass backwards a empty hose changes the emisions according to them. So yeah it is a smog violation

So I can't even have the setup in my car. I wuz just planning to use it at cmi and not carry the bottle everywhere i go. I'm just a little worried cuz you can see the nos setup once you open my hood. I'm wondering if Officer Hoyt has anymore info on just having the setup in my car and not the bottle. Thanks

-=5oMoCo5iVe0=-

09-25-2001, 01:24 AM

I read the whole thread and found it to be very imformative. Many people took their time to help research a topic and keep us all educated.

I do own a car which NOS has a kit with a CARB number for. If i was going to drive up to say, Sac and run my car, what would i need to have to be in accordance with the law. From the previous posts i can deduce that i must have the bottle secured and it must not be connected. Am i also correct in assuming that i do not need a green or yellow sticker and/or a copy of the CARB paperwork? (allthough it might be smart)

Thanks

RS/377

09-25-2001, 03:49 PM

Yeah, you're on the right track- the only thing I'm not sure about is if you have to have it disconnected or not. Thats the next thing I need to check into.

If you give CHP a call, they wil answer your question.I just haven't gotten to it

KFT0001

09-26-2001, 09:51 AM

If your car is CARB approved for NOS, then you can drive around on the street with it connected. As far as what Offc. Hoyt is saying, he's not pulling bs out his ass to screw racers over. It's totally legit to confiscate someone's NOS if they're driving recklessly(racing basically) with it in the car - even if it's not hooked up.

RS/377

09-26-2001, 04:57 PM

Right, we know he can confiscate the bottle.

Its just that it seems these things that require "judgement" can be abused from time to time.

Like I said earlier, doesn't bother me- I drive safer than my grandma

NgRaViTy

11-02-2001, 06:56 PM

hey. guys im new to the board.. ijust read the whole thread.. its very informative.. i plan on geting a zex system for my civic.. so basically its illegal to have hooked up?? they can take it away when its not connected.. . but im confused...an officer told me that nos is ok as long as your not caught using it.. and this is for the sj cops.. how come you guys dont have tracks in san jose for the racers. in san diego they lets racers race at that parking lot. i forgot .. i think its collisium parking lot or somethig...but they do have races down there.. i would like the city of san jose to make a simple straight road. for us racers to make... i think a number of us would pay to just race...

fast928

11-02-2001, 10:46 PM

I spoke at length with the CHP AND the CHP hazmat guys in Sacramento, let's put some myths to bed.

Myth 1:
Originally posted by dp
yo.
you can have the complete nitrous set up in your car! wet or dry, the only thing is that the nos bottle must be disconnected from the system. meaning the bottle is not connected to the nos lines but it can still be in the bracket and this must be visible that its detached.
get the quick release so you can detach it easily and reattach it for the races.
however, nos is a hefty ticket if you are caught with it attached.

Wrong. According to CHP, there is no problem with it hooked up as far as hazmat goes. It's legal to have and run if there's a CARB number for your kit and car. I asked a very pointed question on this matter. Can I run, i.e., have my car ingest nitrous on the street legally. Answer: if it is CARB approved - YES!

Myth 2:
you must have a hazmat placard on your car if you have NOS.

Wrong. There is the personal/trade exemption that allows around 45 lbs of the compressed gas to be transported. Bottles must be securely mounted or valves protected. CHP hazmat told me they DONT want people running NOS with placards.

Originally posted by sjpopo

It's my understanding that NOS is just plain illegal in CA. I have not had a chance to check it out though. I'll do it ASAP.

I'm willing to stand corrected on this, but the CHP in Sacramento completely disagrees with you. I'm at a teachable moment here, so if I'm wrong, please correct me.

As far as I can tell and as far as the CHP and CHP hazmat are concerned:

if your car/kit has a CARB EO number, NOS is 100% legal to have and USE on the street.

Happy spraying!

RS/377

11-02-2001, 11:29 PM

Yeah, the CHP in Gilroy agrees too.

Good luck on putting the myth to rest though, people have it in their head that its illegal.

Nevermind Jaguar was looking a making it an option, both police and civilians won't really accept it.

Fine with me, they can keep it off their cars because they are afraid. Thats just one more advantage the smarter people have.

fast928

11-03-2001, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by RS/377
Yeah, the CHP in Gilroy agrees too.

Good luck on putting the myth to rest though, people have it in their head that its illegal.

Nevermind Jaguar was looking a making it an option, both police and civilians won't really accept it.

Fine with me, they can keep it off their cars because they are afraid. Thats just one more advantage the smarter people have.

Looks like you (RS377) and I are the only ones that bothered to talk to the CHP. Maybe the reason that there's no mention of NOS in the vehicle code is that it's not illegal.

RS/377

11-05-2001, 09:44 AM

Maybe the reason that there's no mention of NOS in the vehicle code is that it's not illegal

Ding, ding, ding! Give the man 64 silver dollars!

Have to go talk to the CHP about my one peice fiberglass front end now.....

randomriceboy

11-08-2001, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by Solo

I hate how when they don't know what to cite you for pick
something that's close or somewhat related or it falls
under some general law that applies to everything.

ex: getting a ticket for a window sticker or as cops like
to say "obstruction of view" even though the law was not
set in affect for the purpose of preventing people from
putting stickers in their windows.

Or pulling you over for "appeared to be swerving in lanes"
at night and said they were doing a routine stop for
possible DUI or something when you know you weren't swerving
in lanes for one, you damn sure ain't drinkin, and then they
see your car's modified and say what cha got here?

This type of stuff is borderline harrasment IMO.

Just my humble .02

One time when they blocked, and towed all the racers in san jose, my friend was in his 4 Runner, and they gave him a ticket for one of those tree things. you hang from the Rear View Mirror. It was Obstruction of View. haha oh well i just wanted to meantion that.